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SHoE takes on TWoP. Again. - I worship at the television altar — LiveJournal
SHoE takes on TWoP. Again.
I think you guys already know that my Smallville reviews are now cross-posted at Starkville House of El Podcast. I've been listening to the podcast on a weekly basis for about 2-1/2 years, and am a huge fan. Derek and Steve, who host the podcast, love Smallville, love Superman, and put on a great show, that is both funny and full of insight. They're also a great source of spoilers and news about Smallville. So if you haven't ever listened, they're worth checking out.

Anyway, last season the boys had a little run-in with some people who post on TWoP. IIRC, it was when they speculated/spoiled that Chloe would be fired from the Daily Planet. I never got the full story, and I never bothered to hunt down the posts about it on TWoP. I only ever read the Tom thread over there. :) Suffice to say there's no love lost between TWoP and SHoE. Well, in their latest podcast, about the Smallville episode Hex, Derek and Steve take on the Chloisers, and OMG, it's quite a listen. Evidently they've been tracking Chloiser posts over at TWoP for awhile now, and they read their favorites during the podcast, and then responded to them. Let me tell you, I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing.

If you want to hear for yourself, you can find the podcast HERE. It's also available as a free download on iTunes. If you do listen, come back and tell me what you thought. Was it funny? Do they have a point? Did they go too far? If you're a Chloiser yourself, though, you should probably skip it. You're not going to like anything about it.


76 comments or Leave a comment
jeannev From: jeannev Date: April 4th, 2009 07:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
I thought it was Awesome, and very funny. I think they reflected just how a lot of people feel about this whole Chlois thing, and how aggravating the level of nastiness has gotten. They do go far, but I think they hit it right on the money. I particularly liked them taking on the person that suggested Tom Welling was "phoning in" his performances with ED on person to sabotage the storyline.

Anyway, I enjoyed it, and they certainly gave voice to my frustrations.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 4th, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC) (Link)
I have to admit, some of the stuff they found sounded pretty far out there to me, and I laughed a lot during the podcast, but I love their sense of humor anyway. I almost never go on TWoP anymore, but the only thread I ever read on a regular basis was the TW one anyway. I think the show made it clear Chlois is never going to happen a long time ago, but if it's fun for the Chloisers to look for signs and speculate, I don't have a problem with that. What bothers me is the animosity between the different fan factions, which unfortunately is not exclusive to any one side.

I do hate with a passion the ugliness I see directed at Erica Durance from some of the Chloisers. It's personal, often vulgar, and totally uncalled for. I had problems with how Lois was written in S7, as my reviews show, but I've never had anything but respect and admiration for ED. Now I'm a big fan of both Lois and Erica.

I read that one post about Tom's acting! It infuriated me so much I posted on TWoP for the first time in over seven months! I had to rush to my boy's defense! LOL!
simplytoopretty From: simplytoopretty Date: April 4th, 2009 07:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
I haven't listened to it and I'm not going to. I have no problem with people not believing in the Chlois theory (my personal SV ending has Chloe and Clark getting together and being journalists and Lois also a journalist and with either Oliver or Bruce, I haven't decided which yet, it depends if Oliver redeems himself). But, from the description, the podcast sounds more about making fun of Chloiers and what they think than anything else.

One of the things that I find most annoying about the Smallville fandom is the need its members have to make fun/mock other fans. I don't expect everyone to agree, of course, but I'm really tired of people on every side calling the fans they disagree with delusional or crazy or all the other million words that are used.

Sorry for the mini-rant.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 4th, 2009 09:25 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think there's a fine line sometimes between debating a certain viewpoint and making fun of the person who holds it. What's funny to one person can easily be offensive to another. One of the reasons I stay away from TWoP these days is all the Clark and Tom bashing that goes on over there. Why stick around to read stuff that upsets me, especially on a site that has become so one-sided?

I don't like the way fans go after each other, either. I don't see why we can't all have our own opinions and be tolerant of each other. I used to wonder why we couldn't unite over our love of the show, but I think a fair number of people watching Smallville pretty much hate it, and watch only to mock and complain. That's one of the dangers of a show lasting as long as Smallville has, I guess, and changing so much over the years. I like it better now than any other season, but I know many, many people would disagree.

One thing they mention in the podcast that I agree with is their distaste for the term "Nois" for ED's Lois. I think it's really disrespectful to Erica, and I don't like it. I expressed that opinion on a friend's journal once and got my figurative hand slapped for my audacity. She defriended me shortly after that.

BTW, that wasn't any kind of rant, not even a mini one, in my book. :)
From: kissme_myfool Date: April 4th, 2009 08:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm with Simplytoopretty. This seems like another mean spirited attempt against Chloisers.

We dislike a character, they hate a group of fans....who are the crazy ones now?

They need to get over it and realize everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

All we have now is TWoP, there is no way I will go to Ksite anymore...TWoP is were we vent :)
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 4th, 2009 09:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
I honestly don't think it's hate for Chloisers as much as pure bafflement that the theory stands. They just don't see it, and are explaining why. With a heavy dose of humor, because they're funny guys. But I can well imagine you would see it differently.

I think there's entirely too much hate in this fandom, and it makes me sad. Hate for characters, hate for actors, and hate for other fans. It's not exclusive to any one group, nor is it universal to any one group. It's just certain individuals who either let their emotions get the better of them, or who enjoy stirring the pot. It's too bad.

You're absolutely right that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, as well as a playground where they can express them freely. And for Chloisers, that playground is clearly TWoP. I have to admit I miss the diversity of opinion TWoP once had, but it's not like I ever contributed to it much. :) A forum is just a collection of people, and if the vast majority of those people all agree on a certain viewpoint, that obviously becomes the official stance of the forum itself. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as people are straightforward about it.
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tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 4th, 2009 10:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
I did appreciate that they read actual posts, rather than making sweeping assertions about what Chloisers think, and the way they cited specific episodes and events to back up their own opinions. It wasn't a rant against Chloisers; it was a rebuttal argument about a theory they think is unfounded in fact. I thought it was interesting that they evidently did it because so many of their listeners had never even heard of the Chlois Theory. That surprised me.

I saw that post about Tom's acting in the TW thread on TWoP and responded to it at the time. It really was an outrageous thing to say, even in speculation. It was totally insulting to Tom, IMO! But I'm pretty sure that was just one person. I don't think anyone agreed with him/her in the thread. And that's the thing, they were responding to individual posts, not saying that every Chloiser believes every theory they found and put forth.

I did think it was funny. Derek and Steve always make me laugh. And if you're going to post something in a public forum like TWoP, I don't think you can complain when someone responds to it. Derek couldn't respond on TWoP because he was banned there, so he chose his own forum for his rebuttal. Where evidently there is no ban on boards-on-boards. :)
ladydreamer From: ladydreamer Date: April 4th, 2009 09:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
I don't see how this can do anything but add to the ugliness already in fandom, and I'm glad I'm not listening to them. I feel like a damn Den Mother sometimes.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 4th, 2009 10:19 pm (UTC) (Link)
There is a lot of ugliness in this fandom, and I don't know what the answer to that is. But I respect that you probably know more about it than most, as you've proven with your mad skillz as a mod. :) I do think the guys felt totally attacked out of the blue by TWoP the last time around, so they may have felt that those who can dish it out should also be prepared to take it. IDK.
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tom_groupie From: tom_groupie Date: April 4th, 2009 10:05 pm (UTC) (Link)
SHoE 117 was pure genius, I loved every minute of it. It's time for everyone to realize that the Clois ship is the only one that's ever gonna sail. It's not an opinion just a simple fact.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 4th, 2009 10:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
I totally agree with you that Lois is Lois, and Lois and Clark are destined to be together. I think the show has made that clear in what we've seen onscreen, and the showrunners have made it equally clear in interviews. And I loved the podcast, too. At the same time, though, if the Chloisers see evidence of a different outcome, and have fun exploring that possibility, where's the harm in that? As long as they can refrain from bashing Erica and hating on other fans, I'm cool with it. Unfortunately, that seems to be a challenge for some of them. :(
babaojay From: babaojay Date: April 5th, 2009 01:46 am (UTC) (Link)
I haven't listened to the podcast, and I'm not a Chlois supporter, but I have to agree with others here...the singling out and mocking of Chloisers is really meanspirited and immature.

In fact, I have to say that, for the past year or so, SV fandom in general has become unbearably obnoxious with all the shipper wars, Chloe vs Lois drama, etc. I have seen some amazingly immature and purposefully mean shit coming from *both* camps (Chloe/Chlois/Chlark fans and Lois/Clois fans), and I haven't been able to find a safe haven *anywhere* online to get away from this insidious bickering. And I'll admit it...I've been sucked into debating both sides with some pretty shitty results. I've promised myself not to get sucked into that again.

It seems harder and harder these days to find a sane niche in SV fandom. If anyone can tell me where a Chloe-loving, Chlavis-swooning, non-Chlois supporting, and indifferent-but-mildly-peeved-by-Lois SV fan can go to talk turkey on Thursday nights, please let me know.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 5th, 2009 02:14 am (UTC) (Link)
I agree that the shipper wars make this fandom hard to bear sometimes. That's why I stick with LJ and my flist to talk about the show. And I also agree that all camps contribute to the nastiness. It can be quite discouraging. I just want to love my show!

I do feel compelled to point out that no one with whom you're agreeing has actually listened to the podcast. I'm not saying that their opinions aren't valid, only that they're based on conjecture and assumptions.
la_belle_isa From: la_belle_isa Date: April 5th, 2009 02:50 am (UTC) (Link)
I'm not sure I'll listen to the podcast; although I did read some posts on TWOP in the past; and I was shocked by the nastiness and hate toward Erica. Those people reap what they sow. I'm not surprised that they can't take what they give though. It would take maturity, something they haven't shown since they would be able to separate Erica from her character in the first place.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 5th, 2009 03:03 am (UTC) (Link)
I have never understood the hatred towards Erica. Even when I wasn't such a big Lois fan, I was always a huge Erica fan. And a lot of the things they say about her on TWoP, besides being baseless, are cruel. I hope she never sees that stuff.
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From: shoepodcast Date: April 5th, 2009 03:17 am (UTC) (Link)
Wow 40 comments over here and this isn't even SHoE's site...

I'm Derek, host of SHoE, and I just want to say thanks to those of you who enjoyed the show. I'm not here to stir the pot, nor was that the intention of this episode of Starkville's House of El, which has a longstanding connection of good terms with cast and crew alike of Smallville.

We wanted to share the interpretation of a fanbase that doesn't get to be seen a lot. It was not fueled out of hatred, disgust, or mockery. We only offered a look into views and our opinions which were not mean spirited or degrading at all. (Since I was banned at TWoP last year for asking people not to send hate mail to my facebook and personal email after I announced Chloe was getting fired - I thought I'd use my SHoE as a place to talk about some opinions, the same way I would reply to then on those sites, if I was allowed an account.)

I'm not sure how us reporting on these opinions are making the fandom more ugly, when I'm only pointing out the direct quotes of others. Like I said, our stance was not to insult or destroy, only to enlighten others.

I love Chloe, I love Lois - I love Chloe fans and I love Lois fans. I've met friends over the past 8 years of watching this show and 3 years of doing this podcast that have views different than mine. I'm friends with several of the writers and directors on the show that share different opinions than that of legions of fans; it doesn't make this fandom any less fun and vast. I'm not out to make fun of anyone, just deepen the value of one of the greatest fanbases in television history. I hope this won't put any of you off listening, statistically speaking it's still the safest podcast for all fans to listen to :)
From: shoepodcast Date: April 5th, 2009 03:37 am (UTC) (Link)
I will, however, say that my co-host Steve does get opinionated at times but intentions were (and are) still good. I'm not out to bash anyone and love everyone and their opinions, which they are entitled to. But so are we. Even knowing things ahead of time, I still remain unbiased and try to respect everyone involved and will continue to do so until the last episode of SHoE.
goodvibe From: goodvibe Date: April 5th, 2009 08:41 am (UTC) (Link)
I loved this. As someone has posted at TWOP back in the day, I have come across some of the worst kind of cruel comments against ED. And occassionally against TW too, though not to the extent that I recall them being extended to ED. So in baselessly attacking an actor - any actor, IMO, a lot of the TWOP forum users crossed a line first anyways. And then add to that the blow up that transpired between TWOP and SHOE last season - frankly, I can perfectly see why this podcast decided to go this direction. And I'm glad they did. Should any of this have happened in the first place? No. But it has, and a great deal of thay stemmed in origin from TWOP, which supposedly a general forum explicitly shuns opinions that aren't Chlois, and routinely bashes ED. I'm not bashing all of TWOP posters, I made some great friends at that forum, and I have some lovely memories of posting there back in the day. But the incessant hate there and inability to respect any other opinion that isn't Chlois, has just gotten increasinly noticeable and meanspirited.

As for some of the flaws they specifically take out in the theory itself? I couldn't agree more. A great many of the arguments are rooted in double standards and selectiveness, IMO, but I'm not going to go there right now. All the more power to those who believe in the theory, I'm not going to knock that. I'd only wish there was an acceptance that another POV exists too.

Here endeth my (not so) 2 cents.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 5th, 2009 01:46 pm (UTC) (Link)
I never posted on TWoP much, but I lurked there for a couple of years before I ever joined LJ. It was my introduction to the Smallville fandom, and my gateway to both SHoE and LJ (I followed links on TWoP to both places). I almost never go there now, though, for the very reasons you describe. I find the Erica bashing particularly hard to take, and I equate reading TWoP with watching South Park: there's always a point where I can't stand it anymore, and I have to get up and leave the room. I do miss the "old" TWoP, where a wealth of viewpoints were represented.

Of course I don't have a problem with the Chlois Theory, or anyone who believes in it. But neither do I have a problem with SHoE poking holes in it. I thought the podcast was funny. Derek and Steve always make me laugh. But I was a little shocked, too, and apprehensive. I wondered if they went too far, which is why I posted this. Obviously the Chloisers think they did, and the strength of their response has intimidated some other people who have sent me PMs instead of commenting here. It's been interesting, to say the least.

I appreciate your input. You're an intelligent, rational person whose opinion I respect. Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment!
duskwillow From: duskwillow Date: April 6th, 2009 12:33 am (UTC) (Link)
I listened to it and thought it was funny.

I think that there is one big difference that should be kept in mind - nobody is mocking Chlois fans for liking or believing in Chlois theory as a theory. What the podcast did is address that some fans believe that Chlois theory will *actually happen on the show*.
Will some fans still feel insulted for being called delusional because of that? Sure thing. But honestly, what they said in the podcast stands.
There is no chance in hell that Chlois will happen on the show. It's been said over and over again by TPTB. There is *Lois Lane* on the show, who is already an established reporter for the Daily Planet. It.Just.Won't.Happen.
Don't like Lois? Fine.
Like Chloe and think she'd do a better job? Fine.
Want to believe Chloe will one day become Lois after real Lois dies? Fine.
You enjoy the subtext? Fine.
You love fanfic and speculation? Fine.
You actually believe that it will happen on the show? Come on, I can not honestly believe that there is a fan out there, who when putting aside their heart's desire to see Chloe become Lois and using only logic can still tell me that they honestly think there is even a possibility that could happen. I honestly can not believe anyone could rationally think that. Want it, wish for it - yes. But actually believe it will happen on the show - you *have* to be lying to yourself.

The idea that just because we're all in fandom nobody's ideas should be mocked or called bad/wrong? Oh hell no.
It's fandom, it's filled with different viewpoints. But not everyone can be right, someone is wrong. So why not call it?
I'm a Clex shipper. I love the ship, I love the subtext, I love the chemistry, I read loads of fan fic, I love talking about Clex on the show and about all different ways how Clex could happen on the show. But I know better, I'm aware that it just won't happen, and that there will be a warm, sunny day in hell before I see Clark and Lex going at it on screen. It doesn't change my enjoyment of the show or Clex. But if I ever start dissecting every small thing that happens on the show to prove that Clex indeed will happen on the show - please, feel free to tell me to stop sailing down The Nile.
Lets say for example Clana fans last season loved how Bizarro was with Lana better than how Clark was with her so some of them decided that it would be cool for Clark to die and Bizarro to take his place and become Clark Kent (I made this example up. And have nothing against Clana fans). It's perfectly fine to enjoy your speculations and fan fic, but don't really expect to see it happen on screen. And yes, we would all tell you it's a load of crap and it won't happen on the show.
Everyone is entitled to enjoy, believe and speculate on whatever they want. But if you want to be taken seriously, and actually try to argue your points and make a case that some of your more 'out there' views should be taken seriously, then yes, you can very well expect occasional smackdown and someone to tell you to "wake up" and call you delusional. Especially when you argue your points on a public forum.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 6th, 2009 01:28 am (UTC) (Link)
Thank you so much for putting things in their proper perspective! You are absolutely right, of course. As I said in another comment upthread, what the boys were saying on the podcast was that the Chlois Theory is not supported by what we're seeing on our TV screens, and that people who persist in thinking it is going to happen on the show are in denial about what they're watching. The examples they read were all posts citing evidence that Chlois is the intended endgame on Smallville. And I agree with you, Derek, and Steve. That is never going to happen.

I appreciate the voice of reason you bring to this comment, and the comparison to being a Clex shipper. I can see how the Chlois Theory was born, back when Chloe was the closest thing this show had to Lois Lane, and especially when she used her cousin's name as a pseudonym at the DP, but once S4 started and the real Lois arrived, it became a thing of fantasy, IMO. And now, four years later, as Lois's role on the show has grown and evolved, it's more evident than ever that this show already has its Lois, and that's not going to change.
starry_dawn From: starry_dawn Date: April 6th, 2009 05:03 pm (UTC) (Link)
I thought it was awesome. They hit the nail on the head with every point, and I couldn't have agreed more. The best part is that they're massive Chloe fans, so it's not like they were just dissing the theory because they hate Chloe (which is a popular opinion among a lot of people, I've noticed). There ARE Chloe fans out here who just enjoy Chloe for who she is and not what she might become.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 6th, 2009 08:32 pm (UTC) (Link)
There ARE Chloe fans out here who just enjoy Chloe for who she is and not what she might become.

And that's me, all the way. I want Chloe to stay Chloe, and be celebrated for the unique and awesome character that she is, Smallville's greatest single contribution to the Superman story.

I listened to the unedited version again, and I came away more convinced than ever that this was just a very entertaining, fun podcast. I know some people were really upset by it, but I also think people need to just lighten up a little. Every disagreement doesn't have to turn into a war, and I'd rather laugh at myself than fall into the trap of taking myself too seriously (which I have done on occasion in the past).

I especially appreciate your perspective because I know you've listened to the guys before (have you listened to SHoE as well as SkyNext?), and know their sense of humor, and also because you're a Chlarker and TWoPer from way back. In other words, you get it! :)
gildinwen From: gildinwen Date: April 6th, 2009 10:21 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think this also shows what people who just casual fans of the show, just in it for the Superman story, think of the theory and of (any) rabid fanbase. It's making fun of the clinging to a theory, a storyline that all logic dictates will never see fruition on the show.

To use Duskwillow's example as I am a clexer: I love the clex, and I think Clark and Lex had the best chemistry on the show, but did I believe that Clark and Lex were *ever* going to start making out on the show? No. It never would have, and it never will *slaps down inner clexer who wails "why not?"

So there's my 0.02
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: April 6th, 2009 11:34 pm (UTC) (Link)
That's a good point. Those of us who are active in fandom online (and I assume we represent a relatively small percentage of the show's viewers) can lose sight of how differently the casual fans experience the show.

It's making fun of the clinging to a theory, a storyline that all logic dictates will never see fruition on the show.

That's it exactly. They're not saying there's anything wrong with having fun with the Chlois Theory, they're just pointing out why they don't believe we'll ever see it on our TV screens, and poking fun at those who do. And I have to say, especially after Hex (because the Chlois spec continues unabated even after the episode), I wonder what show they're watching, too. But that's just my opinion. :)

Speaking of the Clex chemistry, nothing made me think of it more than watching Clark with Tess in Eternal. He's so strong with her, so forthright, and he was never that way with Lex. I've read comments saying it's because he's older, or more confident, but I personally think it's because he isn't overcome with love and lust every time she walks into the room. :) His feelings for Tess are simple, and his feelings for Lex couldn't have been more complex. There's no comparison.
theclexfactor From: theclexfactor Date: May 7th, 2009 02:37 am (UTC) (Link)
I think it's funny how even those who have commented haven't even listened to the podcast and are making assumptions about what was said.

That being said, I thought it was hilarious and I 100% agreed with them.
tariel22 From: tariel22 Date: May 7th, 2009 08:23 am (UTC) (Link)
That's the problem with the shipper wars, IMO. A lot of the arguments seem to be based on assumptions. People just have their minds already made up, and they're completely closed down to all viewpoints except their own. I can understand choosing not to listen, but then you give up your right to have an opinion, you know?

The first time I heard it I loved it, but I was a little bit anxious, thinking of how some people would react to it. But after I listened again, I realized I was taking the whole situation way too seriously, and then I just enjoyed the silliness of it all. And the guys were even funnier the second time. :)
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